By the Blue Light

Jason - I loved this letter. Nick writes me papers...

2009-11-12T19:23:28.860-08:00

Jason - I loved this letter. Nick writes me papers a lot when there is something I don't understand and I thought - yeah, I should be writing him ones too when I feel like the Lord inclines my heart towards something.

But I loved that letter and her extreme patience to wait on JP and on the Lord.

Hi Hannah - thanks for your comment and support. ...

2009-10-15T22:06:41.837-07:00

Hi Hannah - thanks for your comment and support. Check out mrm.org for a much better and more comprehensive resource. I pray Jesus will be with you and your husband in Salt Lake City. Blessings, Jason

it seems like there are never enough analogies or ...

2009-10-15T19:54:55.227-07:00

it seems like there are never enough analogies or word pictures to describe what a sick state we are in w/o God, how much we're about ourselves, and what jesus has done for us. this life feels like an ever deepening journey of understanding the truth about God and the truth about me in view of him. this adds to it for me. thanks love. also i just think andrew peterson is fantastic, so that's a nice bonus too.

thank you so much for this resource! My husband an...

2009-10-15T09:12:08.691-07:00

thank you so much for this resource! My husband and I are very committed evangelicals and we just transplanted to Salt Lake City. It has been such a challenge among this culture, and we are learning all we can about mormonism. reading a good book, "Mormon America" if you want to check that out too (it is much more of a informational book on mormonism - i thought under the banner of heaven was definitely one-sided and krakauer's opinion was not at all disguised).

Hey Anonymous - if you want to post again without ...

2009-10-09T14:42:07.189-07:00

Hey Anonymous - if you want to post again without hiding behind an anonymous title please do. Also, it would be great if you would elaborate as I'm not sure what was patronizing.

I don't think you've been uncivil at all - I've re...

2009-10-09T13:02:26.256-07:00

I don't think you've been uncivil at all - I've really appreciated the dialogue.

Yeah, I'm not a dedicated counter-cultist. Just 1) a lay-pastor type with my main flock being my family and friends and 2) a guy who loves Jesus and thinks he's fun to talk about and dialogue about and share.

I'll probably post more things over the weeks and months (for the benefit of educating my little flock) so please feel free to stay in touch and let me know your perspective on those things too - this has been great - best, Jason

I should be clear that I don't consider you a dedi...

2009-10-09T12:37:31.686-07:00

I should be clear that I don't consider you a dedicated counter-cultist or anything like that. I just figured you were a regular Evangelical(?) who found a neat website and wanted to share.

With that in mind, I'm trying hard not to act too jaded or impatient. So if I get a bit uncivil, be sure to give me a reminder.

I only brought up Mormonism Research Ministries because that's Aaron's outfit, and the one associated with his blog.

I agree with you that the man on the moon thing is...

2009-10-09T12:28:20.656-07:00

I agree with you that the man on the moon thing is not a huge deal and not a strong criticism of JS. Also, I don't have anything to do with MRM (to be clear). Just a guy curious about the LDS faith.

And with regard to the Mosaic law, God provided structure - acknowledging they were doing it because of the hardness of their hearts - structure that would 1) protect the women and 2) put obligations that would discourage polygamy. Obviously there are other examples (divorce) where the Mosaic law allowed for it, but it was not God's plan, rather his response to the hardness of their hearts.

Also, see Deuteronomy 17: 17And he shall not acquire many wives for himself, lest his heart turn away.

Additionally, reading 1 Cor. 11:11 to have something to do with eternal marriage takes it way out of context. Paul uses verse 11 to articulate the interdependence of men and women (woman came from man, but every man since has been born of a woman, our gender roles are different, but equal, etc.) lest the Corinthians think his comments on male headship mean that men are better than women. To read these verses as having something to do with eternal marriage takes them 100% out of context.

I think you are right, we are talking apples and oranges here. More broadly, I would say it makes sense that we don't need marriage come heaven because all I need there will be fully available to me, and that is an in-person face-to-face relationship with my God Jesus.

For the Mormon, you find arguments for marriage (and even plural marriage) (many substantiated by your extra-Biblical writings) to substantiate your belief that godly Mormons will be eternal gods who have spirit children with their eternal wives.

So we are talking to radically different belief systems that stand in opposition to each other, just as the Bible stands in opposition to the BoM, Doctrine & Covenants, etc.

I also reject you assertion that Joseph was talkin...

2009-10-09T11:12:50.512-07:00

I also reject you assertion that Joseph was talking about anything important when he speculated about men on the moon.

If he speculated about men on the moon at all that is.

Remember, the first account we get of this is over 40 years after Joseph was dead. People's memories get pretty fuzzy on quotes after that long. My dad, to this day still vehemently denies that he ever made an insensitive remark to my kid brother 10 years ago, when everyone else in the family is just as adamant that he did say it.

But to be honest, if I had to think back, I can't remember the exact words he used either.

So we have a quote that was already sketchy and uncertain to begin with. And Mormon Research Ministries opportunistically decides to take this vague unsubstantiated statement and suddenly magically transform it into a "prophecy."

"Prophecy?"

Where did that come from? There wasn't any "prophecy" involved.

This illustrates one of the big problems in dealing with Mormon issues. You always have to check and substantiate the footnotes. Because people lie about the footnotes all the time.

Jerald and Sandra Tanner, in their anti-Mormon writings, for example, repeatedly chopped up quotes from Brigham Young and Joseph Smith - sometimes they'd chop out entire pages of material - in order to cut and paste together fragments of a sermon to make these men look as bad as possible. In fact, they did it so much that it's hard to continue believing that they were really even honest in their motives.

But I'm digressing. My point still stands, there was nothing in this alleged statement of Joseph Smith that was even remotely theologically crucial. I don't expect Joseph to have corrections from God on this point any more than I expected God to reveal penicillin to Joseph Smith. God will leave us to our opinions on a vast range of topics. Even when you're a prophet.

This doesn't really concern me in the least and honestly, I think Mormon Research Ministries has much stronger arguments to make against the LDS Church without opening themselves to ridicule by wasting ink on silly criticisms like this one.

Arguments against polygamy from Adam and Eve or th...

2009-10-09T11:00:18.535-07:00

Arguments against polygamy from Adam and Eve or the Bride of Christ are only ever going to be arguments from analogy. Nothing more.

And analogies can only be taken so far.

Especially when the Mosaic Law (given by God) specifically allowed for polygamy and gave regulations for how it was to be conducted. Obviously God isn't as hung up on the structure of marriage as we are. His primary concern seemed to be that people were not being hurt or dealt with unjustly. To that end, he always required that such marriages be conducted with his approval and supervision.

Now about marriage in heaven...

In Jesus' dialogue with the Sadducees, the Greek makes it fairly clear that he is attacking not marital relations per se, but rather the Jewish systems of formalities and legalities of Levirate marriage.

Which doesn't really apply to a discussion of Mormon sealing practices anyway.

And what is your response to 1 Cor. 11:11? Explain to me why it is possible for you or me to be without at least one woman "in the Lord." And if we must be with a woman in the Lord, then how is this done?

The LDS answer is the sealing ceremony (which is not the same thing as marriage - Levirate or otherwise).

So it seems like an apples and oranges discussion here. What Jesus is talking about with the Sadduccees is not the LDS temple sealing as far as I'm concerned.

To say nothing of Mark 10:8-9.

Now, you might bring up some other implications here. But implications aren't enough to convincingly argue against the Mormon position. Not when we have additional revelations and scripture revealing the importance of heavenly sealings of man and woman. Those additional revelations make verses like Mark 10:8-9 and 1 Cor. 11:11 plain as day. And no amount of implied readings in a statement from Jesus that can, honestly, be read multiple ways, is going to defeat that.

PS. To clarify on the marriage topic. I was sayin...

2009-10-09T10:10:14.040-07:00

PS. To clarify on the marriage topic. I was saying that Jesus saying no new marriages would occur in heaven doesn't make sense because it doesn't answer the question. They ask him who's wife she is. Your link implies the greek means he is saying, no new marriages in heaven. If so, he isn't answering the question. But in fact he DOES answer the question. He says, she is none of the men's wife, for there is no marriage in heaven.

PS. I just read your bio on your website and was s...

2009-10-09T10:06:21.218-07:00

PS. I just read your bio on your website and was surprised how much we have in common! I am just a year older than you, have been married 8 years too and have 2 daughters and a son like you. Pretty cool. Thanks again for posting. Best, Jason

To continue: • On the topic of marriage in heaven...

2009-10-09T10:00:35.697-07:00

To continue:

• On the topic of marriage in heaven: The greek interpretation discussed in this link: (http://en.fairmormon.org/Marriage_not_needed_for_exaltation) is very weak. To parse the Greek to say that Jesus was referring to not marrying once in heaven, but that marriages already in effect would continue, makes no sense given the context of the question. Jesus was asked who’s wife she would be, he said “none”, marriage is null and void in heaven. So to say that he was saying no new marriages would occur in heaven makes no sense.
• Further, marriage as ordained by God has many purposes, all for Earth: procreation, pleasure, ongoing sanctification (making us more like Jesus) but most importantly, to demonstrate the Gospel. Just as Jesus came to lead, serve and die for his bride the church, a husband should do likewise for his bride, and to love her faithfully no matter her behavior, just as Jesus did the church. This is the grace picture that God uses covenantal marriage to demonstrate. This picture is no longer needed once we are in heaven with Him (as we will be seeing him face to face and won’t need the metaphor any longer)!
• On McConkie: I don’t see how the expanded quote (I didn’t shorten the other one, it’s one I was reading online) helps. He still says that Mormons shouldn’t worship Jesus. Christians believe that it’s all about Jesus. That He was and is God and claimed to be (in John 10:31 He said “I and the Father are one”, in John 8:58, He said, 58"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" (here using the sacred word for God’s name, YHWH), not to mention the many times He forgave sin, which only God could do). We believe that He is worthy of worship and that He and God and the Holy Spirit are one.
• On polygamy, I’m not so much concerned with the practicality of it (or not), or whether you can make it work, but rather on what the Bible says about it. And the Bible says we ought to be married to one woman. Again, this is the model God provided when He brought one woman to Adam (not many) and when we see Jesus and His bride the church in Revelation 19. Jesus doesn’t have multiple brides that He runs around after. He has one.

Thanks again for posting. I enjoy the discussion and appreciate that we both come from very different faith backgrounds. But ultimately my heart is that you would come to know the only real savior Jesus Christ, and be free from the snare of religion and works-based righteousness that is Mormonism. Let's talk more. I will try to stay open to what you are saying and please try to stay open to what I am saying. Peace in Christ, Jason

Let me address a few of your other points: • Wher...

2009-10-09T09:57:30.504-07:00

Let me address a few of your other points:

• Where do you find something in the Bible saying the old testament prophets thought the earth was flat? And the defense of JS on that link is not really too helpful. He was your prophet, your founding prophet. He supposedly had a direct link to God. So, if your prophet holds such an opinion (especially important given the language talking about having power to go up to preach to them - so we are talking about salvation matters now), I think it’s more than a “non-issue” and to me says he didn’t have the direct link he claimed.
• On the trial and JS’s past life as a money-digger. I don’t have a problem with him having done that or with the idea that he was convicted of a crime (Paul was a murderer and Jesus saved him). But the fact that he did it speaks volumes when you are talking about the roots of your faith. Meaning, if I write science fiction for a living, then one day I write a religious book with a strong science fiction bent (like L Ron Hubbard’s Dianetics), it would be hard not to question the follow-up book and say, hey, isn’t that just more science fiction and not a true religion? In the case of JS, he used occult practices and a special rock to find gold or money (or he claimed to), then suddenly he uses the same practices to find special gold tablets (that have never been produced) and founds a religion? This is too hard to believe. Or at least, it’s hard to believe that someone who uses to scam in one direction hasn’t turned the same scam on a new direction. So no, it’s not about whether or not he committed a crime.
• About the Book of Abraham: you have to make such incredible leaps of faith to believe what is described in the http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Abraham_papyri link you provided. It just doesn’t add up.
• On the topic of Godhood, this discussion is very fruitful because one of my original intents really was to show the vast differences between Mormons and Christians. Christians don’t believe they can become Gods or “one with God”, but rather that we are adopted as sons because of the grace extended to us through the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. Further, and I know you know this text very well, Christians believe that Isaiah 43:10 means exactly what it says: "I am He; before Me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after Me."

Yeah, I probably posted waaay too much to actually...

2009-10-08T23:11:47.377-07:00

Yeah, I probably posted waaay too much to actually digest or respond to. So I won't blame you if you don't respond to every last point I brought up or even just pick a couple favorites.

I can only plead in my defense that I was responding to the issues raised.

As to polygamy, I'm opposed to its mortal practice as a practical matter. Too much room for hurt in the relationship (although I have encountered people - not LDS - who manage to do it in a way just as healthy as any monogamous marriage I've encountered). If my son orany my two daughters wanted to go polygamous, I'd have to oppose as a responsible father.

You can do it right. But it's really hard. I don't mind my Church's current stance against it as a mortal practice.

But I don't mind the idea of the practice in the hereafter - where the fears, selfishness, animosities, and insecurities of mortality are swallowed up in God. I think you could do it right there.

It's not a goal I'm personally shooting for - in this life or the next. But it's not something that troubles me either.

Hey, thanks for posting. I'll take some time to r...

2009-10-08T22:35:41.135-07:00

Hey, thanks for posting. I'll take some time to read through your comments and try to get back to you.

Let me just say one thing real quick though: I didn't mean to be crass about whatever Mormons believe about sexual relations in the spirit world. I think what I meant was more about the world here, ie, your doctinal beliefs seem to say: help the spirit children be born by having lots of kids, and do that through plural marriage. To me, that sounds like a doctrine invented by a man to justify having lots of sex with his multiple wives. Especially because it's so contrary to the Bible's teaching on marriage (God brought one woman to Adam, he didn't bring several and he didn't bring a man).

Anyway, more thoughts later but I appreciate the dialogue. I'm not a great Mormon scholar so I'm sure I can learn plenty about what you believe and I don't claim to be a great arbiter of all things Mormondom. So happy to admit I may get some things wrong and am still learning.

Blessings, Jason

Final installment: As for Apostle Bruce R. McConk...

2009-10-08T21:23:19.549-07:00

Final installment:

As for Apostle Bruce R. McConkie's remarks about having a relationship with Jesus:

Here's a link to the full address:

http://speeches.byu.edu/reader/reader.php?id=6843

Here's the full quote without creative redacting by indiscriminate use of ellipses (as some Mormon critics are famous for):

"[Y]ou have never heard one of the First Presidency or the Twelve, who hold the keys of the kingdom, and who are appointed to see that we are not "tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine" (Ephesians 4:14)--you have never heard one of them advocate this excessive zeal that calls for gaining a so-called special and personal relationship with Christ. You have heard them teach and testify of the ministry and mission of the Lord Jesus, using the most persuasive and powerful language at their command. But never, never at any time have they taught or endorsed the inordinate or intemperate zeal that encourages endless, sometimes day-long prayers, in order to gain a personal relationship with the Savior. Those who truly love the Lord and who worship the Father in the name of the Son by the power of the Spirit, according to the approved patterns, maintain a reverential barrier between themselves and all the members of the Godhead."

Really, this passage can be read as nothing more than discouraging the whole "Jesus is my homeboy" movement (as it is sometimes called today). Even plenty of my Evangelical friends think the "Jesus is my homeboy" movement is cheesy, irreverent, and honestly - pretty stupid-sounding.

But you put ellipses in just the right places, and it sure sounds different, doesn't it?

I'd encourage you to read the entire sermon I linked you to, and think about what McConkie was really saying here.

I'm not sure I completely agree myself with the exact way McConkie put everything in this sermon. But certainly there cannot be any biblical objection to him instructing us to pray to the Father and not to Jesus, right? After all, didn't Jesus explicitly instruct us to pray to the Father in Jesus' name?

And really, as a practical matter, isn't it all going to the same place anyway? If you're praying to the Father, aren't you transmitting info and worship to the Son by extension anyway?

Jesus himself constantly directed praise, honor, glory, and worship toward Heavenly Father.

Can Mormons really be faulted for taking him at his word here?

I hope you'll actually post this response. I've had some Evangelicals tell me on occasion that it's mostly Mormons who have problems with processing opposing viewpoints. They assure me that Protestants don't have this problem with uncomfortable data.

I think they're wrong about Mormons. But I hope that they are right about you, and that you won't mind letting Mormons have their equal say in this discussion.

As for Aaron S. He's a nice guy and obviously sincere about his beliefs. But I've noticed that he's rarely willing to submit his own religion to the sort of scriptural, academic and social scrutiny that he regularly applies to Mormonism. It makes him very hard to have a discussion with on occasion.

You also wrote: "A religion that says 1) marry lo...

2009-10-08T21:22:59.684-07:00

You also wrote:

"A religion that says 1) marry lots of women and 2) populate the world by having lots of sex – now this is certainly a religion invented by a man, right!"

This sort of slander is not exactly what I'd hope for from a Christian.

Mormons believe that male and female are united forever and exalted together. We believe that we will have opportunity to have our own spirit offspring. But does anyone know how this is done, or what the mechanics of it are?

We don't. Any folklore attempts at explanation are just that - folklore with no official standing in the LDS Church. We're not talking about physical births here. We're talking about spirits. Do you honestly believe there's going to be a nine-month pregnancy period, and vaginal delivery, and maybe even post-partum depression from creating a spirit being? I don't. I doubt you do. I doubt many LDS (who are actually asked to think about it for a second) would believe that either.

So why hold a crass image of spirit birth against the LDS Church that we don't even hold to begin with?

If you want to vulgarize someone's beliefs, the Mormons aren't the only vulnerable ones here.

Do you want me to accuse you guys of being cannibals who believe that eating the flesh of a dead Jewish zombie will make you live forever?

No?

Then I'd suggest you cut the talk about heavenly sex and vaginal spirit deliveries.

Anything spiritual can be made fun of and profaned.

Sorry, you brought up a lot of points, I'll need a...

2009-10-08T21:21:17.833-07:00

Sorry, you brought up a lot of points, I'll need a long comment to answer them.

Well, now that we've let Aaron have his say, I hope you'll allow me to provide the Mormon responses to the points you've made here.

Joseph and Moon-Men

A link from Mormon scholars responds to this issue well enough:

http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith_and_moonmen

I should also point out that most of the prophets in the Old Testament believed the Earth was flat too.

And Joseph never "prophesied" anything on the subject any more than Moses "prophesied" about the shape of the earth. At best, it was an idle campfire tale or speculation that some overzealous follower took just a bit too seriously and ran with it.

Total non-issue.

Accounts from Joseph's mom about his storytelling aren't of much concern either, since they could equally indicate that God was simply working on Joseph's mind from a young age.

Now, as to Joseph's arrest:

First, as to whether Joseph Smith sought treasure by mystical or spiritual means, you can find an adequate treatment here:

http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Money_digging

I would add that Joseph later abandoned this kind of activity as his prophetic calling in life became more clear.

As to the trial you speak of:

Here's another response for you:

http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith%27s_1826_glasslooking_trial

And honestly guys, do you want me to go comb the Bible right now for examples of prophets and other Bible heroes who committed crimes? Or can we skip on that part?

OK, moving on to the Book of Abraham:

For a brief Mormon response, see here:

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Abraham_papyri

A longer article of interest on the subject can be found here:

http://mi.byu.edu/publications/books/?bookid=40&chapid=168

Now, you wrote:

"Mormons believe that if you live a righteous life, you can become a God or Goddess (or God’s wife, it seems)"

Nope. Living a righteous life is not sufficient. These are necessary fruits of the spirit, but exaltation only comes through the saving power of the Atonement.

And what do we mean by Gods anyway?

Well, if you watch that tacky YouTube Godmakers video, you'd think that I believed I was going to fly off to some uninhabited corner of the universe and set myself up as God without reference to anything or anyone else.

Not true at all, LDS notions of divinization only occur through complete unified participation in God the Father. We must share the same unity with the Father that Jesus does if we are to be exalted.

So no matter how many are united with God, there is only ever one God in the universe for all practical purposes.

It always confused me how Trinitarians, who believe that three beings can be "One God" refuse to let me do the same thing with more than three.

If three beings can validly become "One God," why not three dozen? Why not three hundred? Why not three million?

And Mormons wind up being just as monotheistic as you are.

Now Matthew 22:30 and Mark 12:25 about no marriage in heaven:

This entry answers your assertions pretty thoroughly:

http://en.fairmormon.org/Marriage_not_needed_for_exaltation

this is really fascinating jason - thanks for post...

2009-10-07T22:33:02.945-07:00

this is really fascinating jason - thanks for posting! a woman in our community group was once a member (or almost member?) of LDS; she has shared some of her experience with us - also fascinating!!

Same as Jessi. JUST thinking today about how I wan...

2009-10-07T17:32:01.773-07:00

Same as Jessi. JUST thinking today about how I wanted to understand that wonderful group of people more. (They all seem to be so cool and nice!)
Also love Dooce.com, an ex-Mormon but NONchristian, totally burned by the mormon church. Thanks for posting this!!

I'm super glad you posted this. One of my favorite...

2009-10-07T15:41:43.495-07:00

I'm super glad you posted this. One of my favorite bloggers is mormon and is actually on Oprah today. I spend a lot of time praying for her & her sister (also a famous blogger). They are SO devoted and it hurts my heart to know they're so misled.

www.nieniedialogues.com
www.blog.cjanerun.com

Ugh - are you serious? That is unbelievable. T...

2009-10-05T10:28:47.143-07:00

Ugh - are you serious? That is unbelievable.

Thanks for enjoying the post! I know Kelly really enjoyed seeing you!

You should probably never go back to Thai Taste - ...

2009-10-03T09:28:15.807-07:00

You should probably never go back to Thai Taste - like EVER. Erin Fede's husband found a maggot in his food there.

Also I love love love this post. I'm so glad you guys had a good time in NC. It was good to see your wife.

Love Sullivan's Island. It is my favorite place in...

2009-10-01T22:23:24.067-07:00

Love Sullivan's Island. It is my favorite place in the south.

Cannot wait to eat at some of these places.

Speaking of good eats...my coworkers treated me and introduced me to the Red Mill today...loved it.